remove radiators to adjust valves?

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remove radiators to adjust valves?

Post  Matthendurocat on Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:27 am

Can you guys actualy get your fingers in there to adjust the exhaust valves without removing the radiators? Is that what everybody does? Just take the whole dang thing apart to adjust the valves? Is there a speacial trick?
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Re: remove radiators to adjust valves?

Post  modette on Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:41 pm

Just use angled feeler gauges, such as:
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00993923000P?keyword=feeler+gauges

So no you do not have to remove the radiators, if you have the Acrebis 6.3 gallon tank you got to remove that pain in the ass, only a pain when you need to work on stuff on the engine.

My brother in-law showed me what to do, I think with the tank off it took like 10 minutes to adjust and put back together. Such an easy process there is no reason why you should not check them often.
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Intakes tight?

Post  mamacone on Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:54 am

You, do not need to remove the radiator. Just bend and manipulate the feeler gauge so it works. I purposely have bent mine to about a 45 degree angle 1/2 from the tip. That helps. Does anyone else experience the intakes always being tight? My exhaust valves rarely need any adjusting but the exhausts are always tight.
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Re: remove radiators to adjust valves?

Post  RallyMoto on Sat Sep 19, 2009 1:51 am

I don't have to remove the radiators either. As above, just bend the feeler gauges.

I, too have tight intakes, slightly, at each check. I can always tell because it gets a little harder starting.
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not talking about feeler gauges!

Post  Matthendurocat on Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:24 am

I can check the clearance just fine, I have angled gauges. Im talking about actualy adjusting them. How do you get a screwdriver and a wrench in there at the same time? do you have to take the radiators off?
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how do gaps get smaller?

Post  Matthendurocat on Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:36 am

How can the gaps get smaller? I thought over time the surfaces got peened down and the gaps got bigger and bigger. or a tinny bit of metal wore off of the cam so the gap on the valve side of the rocker arm increased with time. Do the valve seats loose matierial and allow the valve stems to get higher with time? If you adjusted the valves when cold and checked when hot mabey the gap would get smaller? anyway how do you guys get a wrench in there and a screw driver at the same time?
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Re: remove radiators to adjust valves?

Post  RallyMoto on Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:59 pm

I've got a really long screwdriver that I thread in at a slight angle. Box-end just comes right in from the side, no problem.

That's a good question on the valves. I would imagine it would have something to do with the seat. Probably minor imperfections forming in the seat over time.
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Valve adjustment

Post  mamacone on Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:16 pm

It is a little tight but has not been that difficult, have you removed the gas tank? The biggest challenge for me is bolting the tank back on.
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Re: remove radiators to adjust valves?

Post  Rd650 on Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:34 am

The valves get tight by sinking deeper into the valve seat thus taking up the clearance at the adjuster.
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Re: remove radiators to adjust valves?

Post  Matthendurocat on Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:38 am

So what is the usual net effect? In general, do the valves usualy loosen up or tighten up? I always thought the only common effect was that the gap between valve and rocker arm got wider.
To heck with all of this, I am going to remove the engine from my bike so I can really get at the valves, I have nothing better to do anyway. (kidding)
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Re: remove radiators to adjust valves?

Post  Rd650 on Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:25 am

Someone correct me if I am wrong. But the 650r has a tendency for the stock intake valves to sink into the seat taking up the clearance at the adjuster.
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I think what you are describing is called "Tulip".

Post  Bump on Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:19 am

And I think valves can be expected to make it less than 10K miles if kept in adjustment. Perhaps longer if they are run loose.

I see guys saying they run Ti valves but then that wear is transferred to the head which is a lot more expensive than valves. Sorta like some folks say to use the transmission to slow a vehicle down hills instead of using the brakes. But brakes are a lot cheaper than transmissions assuming it ain't miles and miles long downhill.

The stock intake valves will, in my experience, wear (become pitted) much quicker from using aftermarket filters in dusty environs than they will tulip. I got my scoot with about 1500 - 2000 miles and the valves were already pitted. That was from Nor Cal fire roads and no dunes or anything.


Rd650 wrote:Someone correct me if I am wrong. But the 650r has a tendency for the stock intake valves to sink into the seat taking up the clearance at the adjuster.
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10 thousand miles !?!? I dont understand what your saying.

Post  Matthendurocat on Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:50 pm

You gotta be kiddin me! I just about have 10,000 on my bike now and I think its just about broke in. When it hits 15,000 I will probly start running a full synthetic. Are you saying my valves already need replaced? Thats crazy talk! I dont think I get what you're saying or something. Bump, how "loose would you say is safe? what are the effects of running them too loose?(besides less power and what not) At what point do loose valves start to cause damage? I just about have 10,000 on this bike and the valves have never needed adjustment. When I checked them 1000 miles ago the exhausts were starting to get just a tad loose, I could squeeze a .009 or maybe a .010 in there but I didnt adjust because I didnt want to remove the radiators. Im starting to think that I shouldnt mess with the valves. Is there anyone who has never ever adjusted there valves like me with this many or more miles?
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Tappet feelers

Post  zaptoad on Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:17 pm

personally, I like these.

http://www.motionpro.com/motorcycle/tools/category/tappet_feeler_gauges/

They are smaller and narrower, work better in tight spaces.....

and "no", I don't remove the rads.

Actually, getting the Sahara tank bolts back in is the biggest problem. I usually give up and get the wifie with the little hands. I am trying to build a new tank bolt system that is easier to use.


Last edited by zaptoad on Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:21 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : more info..)
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I don't know

Post  Bump on Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:18 pm

Part of what I was getting at is that not adjusting them may make them last longer. But I think the general consensus is the do a real teardown at 10K. Or so I think I've noticed on the Yahoo group. And I think Bob Bell and Eric Siraton told me that 10K is about as long as you want to go without taking the engine apart and replacing things like valves, measuring the timing chain for stretch, and so forth.

That said, some things can accelerate that program. If you ride where it's dusty and use aftermarket filters (like the PO of my scoot did) then you will be pitting valves much sooner. The bike will still run. Rings will go away faster too. The bike will still run. I rode with a guy last year who ran aftermarket filters, rode in dusty areas, and I'd guess his bike had 10K miles or so. We swapped bikes and on a downhill his bike didn't have the compression braking mine did. In fact, his bike picked up speed! But it still made good power.

I worked in a racing cylinder head shop in LA for a little while when I was a kid and saw the damage a valve can do when it lets go so perhaps I'm a little more concerned about it. I don't think loose valves cause much damage. It's valves that are making contact that wear.

I'd guess there are plenty who never adjust the valves. Plus, the BRP won the Baja 2000 and every 1000 it was entered in and never had an adjustment during the race so it's certainly capable of running very well without that maintenance. But if you starting chipping off material then you change some things. You now have metal floating around in there. If it gets caught between the valve and the seat as the valve closes you got problems. How fast is that valve traveling when it hits debris too? And perhaps there is a coating on the valve that protects the metal. I don't know.

if you are riding for fun I wouldn't worry about it. But if you are racing the bike, or running it flat out all the time then I'd be on a much more aggressive schedule. It's $400 for a new head, $300 for the correct porting, and then all the hardware is more so if a valve grenades you are looking a grand in parts pretty quick I'd guess.

Matthendurocat wrote:You gotta be kiddin me! I just about have 10,000 on my bike now and I think its just about broke in. When it hits 15,000 I will probly start running a full synthetic. Are you saying my valves already need replaced? Thats crazy talk! I dont think I get what you're saying or something. Bump, how "loose would you say is safe? what are the effects of running them too loose?(besides less power and what not) At what point do loose valves start to cause damage? I just about have 10,000 on this bike and the valves have never needed adjustment. When I checked them 1000 miles ago the exhausts were starting to get just a tad loose, I could squeeze a .009 or maybe a .010 in there but I didnt adjust because I didnt want to remove the radiators. Im starting to think that I shouldnt mess with the valves. Is there anyone who has never ever adjusted there valves like me with this many or more miles?
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Runing Flat Out all the time?

Post  mamacone on Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:54 am

Who is capable of running the pig flat out all the time? Nobody I know or have seen. Would like to see the results.
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Re: remove radiators to adjust valves?

Post  JossaXr on Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:32 am

Bump wrote:And I think valves can be expected to make it less than 10K miles if kept in adjustment. Perhaps longer if they are run loose.

I see guys saying they run Ti valves but then that wear is transferred to the head which is a lot more expensive than valves. Sorta like some folks say to use the transmission to slow a vehicle down hills instead of using the brakes. But brakes are a lot cheaper than transmissions assuming it ain't miles and miles long downhill.

The stock intake valves will, in my experience, wear (become pitted) much quicker from using aftermarket filters in dusty environs than they will tulip. I got my scoot with about 1500 - 2000 miles and the valves were already pitted. That was from Nor Cal fire roads and no dunes or anything.


Rd650 wrote:Someone correct me if I am wrong. But the 650r has a tendency for the stock intake valves to sink into the seat taking up the clearance at the adjuster.

10k miles sounds very litle I have friends who have run 50000km to 75000km on the XR without any other maintens then oilchange and adjusting the valves abut 3000km and the one with 75000km on the odo have a KN filter
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What can I say?

Post  Bump on Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:56 am

The bike was engineered to be raced in the deserts of So Cal, Nevada, Baja, Mexico, and I suppose Arizona too. It might not hold up the very fast riders and very harsh conditions around Tucson, AZ. So if it's running race conditions it ain't gonna last if it's run tight and full tilt boogie. It will last an order of magnitude longer than the other race bikes, like the CRs. But I think 10,000 miles, or 10 Baja 1000s would ear it out to the point you'd want to take it apart. Once in there, you'll surely find things in the top end...



JossaXr wrote:
Bump wrote:And I think valves can be expected to make it less than 10K miles if kept in adjustment. Perhaps longer if they are run loose.

I see guys saying they run Ti valves but then that wear is transferred to the head which is a lot more expensive than valves. Sorta like some folks say to use the transmission to slow a vehicle down hills instead of using the brakes. But brakes are a lot cheaper than transmissions assuming it ain't miles and miles long downhill.

The stock intake valves will, in my experience, wear (become pitted) much quicker from using aftermarket filters in dusty environs than they will tulip. I got my scoot with about 1500 - 2000 miles and the valves were already pitted. That was from Nor Cal fire roads and no dunes or anything.


Rd650 wrote:Someone correct me if I am wrong. But the 650r has a tendency for the stock intake valves to sink into the seat taking up the clearance at the adjuster.

10k miles sounds very litle I have friends who have run 50000km to 75000km on the XR without any other maintens then oilchange and adjusting the valves abut 3000km and the one with 75000km on the odo have a KN filter
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Im going for 50,000 miles with nothing but oil changes!

Post  Matthendurocat on Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:21 pm

I will probly adjust the valves and maybe replace a few wear I tems but I will never take the engine apart. I bet I can get at least 50,000 out of this unit. I had a 1985 xr600r that was ridden hard, fast, and a long way every day of its life before this bike. It was running great the day I replaced it with my 07 XRR and it had never been apart, in fact I NEVER adjusted the valves or anything! I just changed the oil. If I wanted a bike that I had to tear apart every few thousand miles I would have kept my harley davidson! (No offence to any Harley owners, some people like to work on their bikes more than they like to ride them). If my bike has pitted valves and low compression and all that other stuff but still runs great I wont mind. I will keep riding it. I will put all the money I saved from doing needless teardowns and rebuilds into another bike ten years from now when I feel its time for another. I bet this honda is still running just fine at that point in time! Not to detract from what bump is saying because hes right about it all, but it just depends on how picky a guy wants to be. -Matt
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Re: remove radiators to adjust valves?

Post  Dave P on Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:43 am

Bump wrote: But I think 10,000 miles, or 10 Baja 1000s would ear it out to the point you'd want to take it apart. Once in there, you'll surely find things in the top end...

I think I would agree.

My mechanic recently started pulling my 10,000+ mile '02, engine apart (hard desert miles).
It appears as though the piston/rings had been replaced, as they just looked too good (I've got some picts, if interested). The timing chain was sloppy, and the trained eye pointed out what "sunken" valve seats look like. The bike still ran fine, though. I did the rest of the damage - rockers and cam - by riding her low on oil.

Dave
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Perhaps...

Post  Bump on Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:18 pm

I have a friend who races, a well known guy, and didn't even check the oil on his 1985 Ford Thunderbird until 80,000 miles. He got away with it but would you call that the smartest decision he could make? When he did check it didn't even show on the dipstick.

What we are talking about here is two competing philosophies.
1. Do you do preventative maintenance?
2. Or do you fix stuff when it breaks?

I used to be a #2 guy. But I got sick of riding with people who were even worse about it than I was. Now I'm in the #1 camp.

This bike is called an XR but it's not really an XR. It is a purpose designed race bike. The other XRs are what you suggest; they are put gas in and ride scoots. Not so with the BRP. Sure it's detuned for sale to the general public. Still, it's a race bike and should be managed accordingly, IMHO.

Moreover, the bike was never designed to run kilometers. So you are completely on your own there. god help you.


JossaXr wrote:
Bump wrote:And I think valves can be expected to make it less than 10K miles if kept in adjustment. Perhaps longer if they are run loose.

I see guys saying they run Ti valves but then that wear is transferred to the head which is a lot more expensive than valves. Sorta like some folks say to use the transmission to slow a vehicle down hills instead of using the brakes. But brakes are a lot cheaper than transmissions assuming it ain't miles and miles long downhill.

The stock intake valves will, in my experience, wear (become pitted) much quicker from using aftermarket filters in dusty environs than they will tulip. I got my scoot with about 1500 - 2000 miles and the valves were already pitted. That was from Nor Cal fire roads and no dunes or anything.


Rd650 wrote:Someone correct me if I am wrong. But the 650r has a tendency for the stock intake valves to sink into the seat taking up the clearance at the adjuster.

10k miles sounds very litle I have friends who have run 50000km to 75000km on the XR without any other maintens then oilchange and adjusting the valves abut 3000km and the one with 75000km on the odo have a KN filter
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Curious

Post  Matthendurocat on Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:23 am

Bump, I always heard that the brp engine was based on the old XR500r and XR600r engine, how much of that is true and what changes did they make that turned it from a "put gas in it and ride scoot" to more of a race bike? Is there a way to "detune" a brp even more to make it last longer? -Matt P.S. Is rebuilding an engine really Preventitive maintenance? I think if it needs rebuilt then its just a rebuild, changing fluids and adjusting things is sort of more preventitive I think. Anyway all this has me thinking and I am going to run some numbers on some different scenarios and see about the econmics of all this. If the results contradict any of my previous statements I will keep them a secret, and even if they dont I will keep them a secret so you guys cant tell what the results are! (kidding) How much would a complete topend rebuild cost? I like to wrench on my own bike but if someone out there does a couple XR rebuilds a week then they probably know all the tricks and I am better off having them do it.(not to mention the fact that a top end rebuild is farther into one of these then I've ever been.
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Hey Dave,

Post  Matthendurocat on Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:40 am

What was wrong with the rockers and cam on that bike?
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Re: remove radiators to adjust valves?

Post  Dave P on Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:59 am

Matthendurocat wrote:What was wrong with the rockers and cam on that bike?

Matt:

I forget exactly how my mechanic put it, but lack of lube degraded their integrity.

I'll get some picts and another breakdown of what happened when I pick her up this week.

I'm pretty stoked. I'll have two good running BRPs in the pen. Very Happy
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there's a lot different

Post  Bump on Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:08 am

Somewhere on the Honda website there's a page that Ogilvie goes into some detail about the development of the XR650R. Basically, the XR600s were being run at 680 or something and the engines grenaded at about the same mile marker every time.

If I can find the page I'll post it here. But a quick search didn't have any joy.

Here's another useful page though. There are a lot of solid ideas here that can be applied to other areas on the bike. Like the idea of using guards that flex instead of firm metal guards. And I HOPE this finally solves that silly argument in another thread about drive chains!!!
: http://www.xr650r.net/bruce_ogilvie.htm


Bruce Ogilvie’s list of tips on things American Honda has discovered or learned over the last year of testing and racing the big XR.

THINGS RACERS NEED TO KNOW

Read and follow carefully the February/March Wrenchnewsletter for conversion to full power competition mode and for right footpeg installation. They recommend checking the right footpeg bolts for tightness on a regular basis, about 300-mile intervals.

Final drive gearing of 14/45 for BITD and 15/48 or 15/47 (Mexico) for SCORE events offering a smoother power delivery and the best (forwards) wheel placement. (Stock is 14/48)

Remove the brass reserve from the petcock and run in the on position.

Do not use a rear mousse or tire insert. Use only a heavy-duty tube.

If you use the stock fuel tank, you must remove the white plastic insert so our (Honda pit) dump cans are able to completely fill your tank.

MORE TIPS FOR EVERYONE

The air filter is held securely in place by the left sidepanel. Be sure the front lower clip has adequate tension. It can be bent or damaged by a riders boot or other impacts, which decrease tension on the air filter and can result in dirt by­passing the air filter at the front lower corner.

With only a 1.7 quart oil capacity, usage becomes more critical (1 pint low is more than a 25 percent reduction in total capacity). Be sure to check oil levels in 200-to-300 mile intervals. To get a proper dipstick reading, the engine must be left at idle for 20 to 30 seconds. When racing, idle into the pit on which you plan to check the oil. Also watch out for overfilling; too much oil can destroy the crankcase seals.

A stock XR650 will run better on pump gas than a high-octane race fuel, which needs a higher com­pression ratio to be effective. (All gas in the Honda pits is Chevron 92- or VP 93-octane unleaded.)

Keep the rear wheel adjusted as far forward as tire clearance allows. The bike turns and handles better and is more stable with the wheel adjusted closer to the swingarm pivot.

The stock chain uses a staked/clipless master link (endless chain). A bike with this much torque will break conventional clip-type master links. Using one is asking for a race failure.

Honda sells the D.I.D 520 ERV2 chain (0-ring with staked master link). The Honda part number is DIDS2OERV2-120. Team Honda has been using this grade of chain since 1994. A special tool is required for staking the master link (also available at your Honda dealer). The stock XR650 chain is also very high quality and meets or exceeds the ERV2 strength measurements.

The rear fender bolts tend to come loose and should be checked regularly or have a thread-lock applied.

Inspect on a regular basis the spring-loaded part attached to the choke plate on the carburetor rear intake opening. If the spring breaks from fatigue (from excess running with the choke on or half on), it can lead to the flapper being drawn into the combustion chamber and cause engine failure. An alternate solution is to remove the flapper and spring from the choke plate, which can be done while still in the carburetor. The only drawback is the bike might take three kicks to start when cold.

The owner’s manual is incorrect: reserve is actually 0.53 gallon.

]Install a second rear rim-lock in the rear wheel. Safety-wire spokes in both wheels after break-in (tighten spokes and balance wheels also).

If you have experienced a boil-over situation with your coolant, consider switching to a radiator cap with a 1.6 or 1.8 rating (stock is 1.1). Honda doesn’t make a 1.8, but a KX8O cap is rated at 1.8 and will fit. The downside to going to a higher rating is it puts more pressure in the system, especially the hoses and fittings. This increases their susceptibility to punctures and other damage. Remember, this liquid-cooled bike should not sit and idle for long periods without airflow through the radiators. Additionally, the system is designed to boil over and has a coolant catch to handle the escaping fluid. This does not equal overheating, a common misconception.

The Baja race bikes use a 1.8 cap without the overflow tank and thermostat to save weight. They are able to get away with this by careful bike warm-up and racing with the bike wide open. These mods are not for the average rider!

The power-up kit is the same as used by Johnny Campbell and company and adds about 10 horsepower with a higher-compression piston, different cam and a stronger cam chain.

Honda also leaves the chain guide alone because it believes the polypropylene part will flex with a hit, while a metal guard will bend and do more damage.
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