Carb Problems

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Carb Problems

Post  Hew on Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:06 pm

I am now reasonably happy with the suspension and gearing settings on my bike and it is only let down by the carb.
My main problem is that when the bike stalls on a steep hill it is a bastard to start ( this is the case when the bike has NOT been on its side). It is hot and flooded and finding the right throttle open/closed is heartbreaking. I also think that it stalls very easily on these steep banks especially after bumping it up a rock step.
Riding in the UK is from sea level to 1,500 feet.
The bike has had the snorkel and the choke plate taken off. It did have the race exhaust tip fitted but I refitted the standard as I ride in sensitive areas.
It has a 65s pilot jet and 175 main - I have ordered a 68s and 170 main that I think will improve running.
The float height is approx right at 16/17mm.
Am I wasting my time trying to solve the issue of flooding on steep banks with the standard carb any help or tips appreciated.

Or should I just raid my kids piggy bank and buy a Edelbrock, anyone got one for sale??

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I hear you

Post  mamacone on Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:03 am

I have the same issue, my runs great until I stall it on a hill. Then it is a pig to start. Hodakaguy just put an eddie on his but I have not actually witnessed if it has helped. Hodaka guy loves the eddie. I want to ride it and experience the difference.

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What you should do

Post  Bump on Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:50 am

You should get your OEM carb to someone who knows it inside and out. I know there are a lot of guys who are tinkerers and all who have some strong opinions out there. So what. What you want is a bike that starts easily ALL the time and provides zero problems. Don't re-invent the wheel here. Ogilvie worked on this bike for almost 15 years. Take advantage of that.

I had a lot of problems with mine until I finally just delivered it all to Precision Concepts when the Team Honda shop was there. It's perfect now. Zero problems since. The bike comes from japan all screwed up for emissions. Then everyone changes the intake radically. Then a hodgepodge of cams, pipes, air filters, and so forth. It's all a mess. Just follow the Team Honda setup. Stock filters are best in every way. HRC Cam plus all related HRC HD parts. Precision Concepts Head. T-4 pipe. All the usual intake mods. That's it. You hear a lot of talk about a stage two cam. That's great if you want to move all your power up to the big end. I think it doesn't suit 99.99% of the riding or racing people do. Moreover, Team Honda didn't use it. In fact, they didn't even use the HRC pistion. You hear a lot of reasons why from the tinkerers. But I was told firsthand by Team Honda that the bike tended to come out from underneath the riders! IMHO, you can add the HRC piston milled down for race gas if you are looking for more two-stroke like performance.

The starting process is listed all over the web so I won't repeat it here. But the throttle shouldn't be open at all unless it is flooded and then it's wide open while you kick it through 10 times - just like with a car minus the kicking.

Yes, I know the Edelbrock is popular with LOTS of guys. Let me ask you this. Did you see ANY XR650R with an Edelbrock in Dust to Glory?

Finally, and listen I don't mean to offend you OK? If you are stalling on hills then it's a rider technique problem not a bike problem. Get some of the Gary Semics videos and books. I rode for 30 years before I got some of Semics' stuff and it immediately improved my riding ALOT.



Hew wrote:I am now reasonably happy with the suspension and gearing settings on my bike and it is only let down by the carb.
My main problem is that when the bike stalls on a steep hill it is a bastard to start ( this is the case when the bike has NOT been on its side). It is hot and flooded and finding the right throttle open/closed is heartbreaking. I also think that it stalls very easily on these steep banks especially after bumping it up a rock step.
Riding in the UK is from sea level to 1,500 feet.
The bike has had the snorkel and the choke plate taken off. It did have the race exhaust tip fitted but I refitted the standard as I ride in sensitive areas.
It has a 65s pilot jet and 175 main - I have ordered a 68s and 170 main that I think will improve running.
The float height is approx right at 16/17mm.
Am I wasting my time trying to solve the issue of flooding on steep banks with the standard carb any help or tips appreciated.

Or should I just raid my kids piggy bank and buy a Edelbrock, anyone got one for sale??

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Riding Techniqe?

Post  mamacone on Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:13 pm

That must be a wonderful set of books? Never killed a bike on a hill climb? blah Give me a break or better yet get off the tarmac and really ride the pig.

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Edelbrock Fan....

Post  RallyMoto on Sat Jul 11, 2009 3:05 pm

Before this thread gets too heated, I'm in on the Edelbrock asking for it . I've had mine for about 2 weeks now and absolutely love it. I know, I know, "the stock carb is better when tuned properly", and so is the Mikuni, etc. Very Happy

My decision was based off of the need to get it tuned quickly and simply, and have minimal adjustments for altitude. I just got back from a ride in the Sierras today that took me from near sea level to over 10,000 feet. Ran a little rich up high, but not enough to make me pull the seat and tank to adjust it.

I fought with the stock carb for the last 6 months and never could get it right, and it ran like crap at altitude.

The altitude bit was one of the major determining factors for me (though probably not for you at sea level). I'm not looking for peak performance, just easy to use reliability.

The Edelbrock seems to be hit or miss, though. I've read of some who can't stand it, especially the earlier versions.

And my bike starts first kick at any angle, doesn't die on hills/ledges either. And doesn't bog off idle anymore.

Good luck in sorting it out. You have my vote. clown

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I'd also add ...

Post  Bump on Sat Jul 11, 2009 3:41 pm

That the guys I know with Edelbrocks seem to get significantly better mileage. However, that wasn't the OP's issue.

The Edelbrock seems to have some real advantages. Hillclimbing is not one I've ever heard. Moreover, the XR650R, like its open class brethren the CR500 and KX500s, are known to be very good hill climbing bikes. So the issue, like the FAA likes to always say, is usually pilot error. If Jeremy McGrath can go back to Semics every year then surely all of us could learn from him too. As I mentioned, I'm not too proud to admit he's helped me a lot.

Back to the OP's problem. He said when the bike stalls rather than saying the bike dies. So I'm assuming what I think a stall implies.
In any case, remember he's 6000 miles away from where the XR650R was designed to be ridden, and where most of the XR650Rs live. And he's likely having a difficult time finding a mechanic who is intimately aquainted with this bike. I went through several here in Nor Cal before finding one who could work on it properly. And this bike does have its peculiarities. So my suggestion to him is to recreate the Team bikes. Then all he has to do is follow their instructions for elevation and jetting and so forth. If need be, he can ship the carb over here for rebuilding and jetting. Then, like mechanical fuel injection, if he continues to use the same parts, the injection continues to be in tune.

Sadly, I think his story is all too familar. The bike is problematic is some ways - all seem to be connected to the intake. The carb is finicky. Even Honda admits the airbox is about their worst ever. All the emissions stuff just pushes an uncorked bike even farther from running properly. And frankly, a lot of things can go wrong in a carb. The bike won the Baja 1000 outright every year Honda entered it. It beat million dollar trophy trucks. The Team riders wadded it up and still finished first. So does anyone really think Honda would jeopardize all that out of some secret loyalty to Keihin?

Plus, I think that $400 is a lot of money! Smile

RallyMoto wrote:Before this thread gets too heated, I'm in on the Edelbrock asking for it . I've had mine for about 2 weeks now and absolutely love it. I know, I know, "the stock carb is better when tuned properly", and so is the Mikuni, etc. Very Happy

My decision was based off of the need to get it tuned quickly and simply, and have minimal adjustments for altitude. I just got back from a ride in the Sierras today that took me from near sea level to over 10,000 feet. Ran a little rich up high, but not enough to make me pull the seat and tank to adjust it.

I fought with the stock carb for the last 6 months and never could get it right, and it ran like crap at altitude.

The altitude bit was one of the major determining factors for me (though probably not for you at sea level). I'm not looking for peak performance, just easy to use reliability.

The Edelbrock seems to be hit or miss, though. I've read of some who can't stand it, especially the earlier versions.

And my bike starts first kick at any angle, doesn't die on hills/ledges either. And doesn't bog off idle anymore.

Good luck in sorting it out. You have my vote. clown


Last edited by Bump on Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:09 am; edited 1 time in total

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???

Post  Bump on Sat Jul 11, 2009 3:44 pm

mamacone wrote:That must be a wonderful set of books?
Look at his list of pro users.

Never killed a bike on a hill climb?
Never. That's not to say I've always made it to the top.

blah Give me a break or better yet get off the tarmac and really ride the pig.
You got your break when you found this forum.

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Re: Carb Problems

Post  Hew on Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:12 pm

I've just watched the Dust to Glory film for the first time. I had seen a Y Tube clip of the Honda B rider leading Campbell before and still expect to see him go over the bars when he hits the silt beds. It also explains why the Xr feels so good as the speed starts to rise. Indeed it is one of the things I like about the bike that when I have the confidence to pin it over obstacles rather than back off it rewards me by seeming to float over the top.
Back to the stalling issue. On my ride last week I had problems stating it twice.
Once when I had stopped to help another rider who was stuck. My bike was hot and on a steep slope.
The other it stalled as I was just about to ride over some rocks just after an overhanging branch had whacked me on the nose. Yes I was distracted and this had a baring on the stalling but I still feel the bike stalls far to easily on slopes especially if it goes near vertical bouncing up rock steeps. I suspected that the float height was out but this is about right.
There is no doubt that it floods whilst being upright on a slope, it backfires through the air box as I am kicking it over. Using all of the various techniques it does eventually start but can be a real pain. Starting on the flat is not a problem, hot cold, flooded, after been on it's side or upside down even.
I have lost count of the amount of riders who have said that they would have bought the bike had it had the magic button and I can see why but I really don't mind having to kick it a couple of times to get moving. Solving the issue on steep hills would greatly increase my enjoyment of the bike. If I was riding wide open trails the bike could be placed across the track to simulate being level but these tricky slopes are generally only a bike track wide.
I'll continue to work on my riding technique and search out a carb guru who can solve the issue as I suspect that it's going to take me more than one life time to get to the stage where I never stall or fall off the bike naughty
Just in case keep me posted on the Edelbrock RallyMoto as it is great fun on tight trails, tailgating competition 2 strokes whilst riding the BRP.

PS I also got a great break when I found this forum and really enjoy all the posts Cool

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If you want ...

Post  Bump on Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:28 am

I can help you interface with Precision Concepts. I can send the stuff back to you, or anything you buy from them, like a jet kit,from my home labeled as a gift. If you want to send me all the particulars about your bike I'll call the shop and run it all past them and reply to you with what they recommend.

That said, there are several guys in So Cal I'd trust with the bike. I think at least one is on here, Boydnar I think is his name. There's a guy on the yahoo group I'd also trust with anything on the bike, XRGene, but he's a Edelbrock fan so that might not help with this. I think Soto is on here too and he'd know more trustworthy carb people than I.

It sounds to me like perhaps a couple of things might be happening. I've had problems like this with other bikes and it was usually a carb cleaning that solved it. And truth be told, it was a carb cleaning from a pro after I had already cleaned it! beat head

Hew wrote:I've just watched the Dust to Glory film for the first time. I had seen a Y Tube clip of the Honda B rider leading Campbell before and still expect to see him go over the bars when he hits the silt beds. It also explains why the Xr feels so good as the speed starts to rise. Indeed it is one of the things I like about the bike that when I have the confidence to pin it over obstacles rather than back off it rewards me by seeming to float over the top.
Back to the stalling issue. On my ride last week I had problems stating it twice.
Once when I had stopped to help another rider who was stuck. My bike was hot and on a steep slope.
The other it stalled as I was just about to ride over some rocks just after an overhanging branch had whacked me on the nose. Yes I was distracted and this had a baring on the stalling but I still feel the bike stalls far to easily on slopes especially if it goes near vertical bouncing up rock steeps. I suspected that the float height was out but this is about right.
There is no doubt that it floods whilst being upright on a slope, it backfires through the air box as I am kicking it over. Using all of the various techniques it does eventually start but can be a real pain. Starting on the flat is not a problem, hot cold, flooded, after been on it's side or upside down even.
I have lost count of the amount of riders who have said that they would have bought the bike had it had the magic button and I can see why but I really don't mind having to kick it a couple of times to get moving. Solving the issue on steep hills would greatly increase my enjoyment of the bike. If I was riding wide open trails the bike could be placed across the track to simulate being level but these tricky slopes are generally only a bike track wide.
I'll continue to work on my riding technique and search out a carb guru who can solve the issue as I suspect that it's going to take me more than one life time to get to the stage where I never stall or fall off the bike naughty
Just in case keep me posted on the Edelbrock RallyMoto as it is great fun on tight trails, tailgating competition 2 strokes whilst riding the BRP.

PS I also got a great break when I found this forum and really enjoy all the posts Cool


Last edited by Bump on Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:10 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Carb Problems

Post  Focker on Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:42 am

** Michael Jackson is ALIVE! **



Apparently Precision Concepts & Team Honda were able to clean & rebuild his heart & valves! Turns out it was an insurance scam...Crazy celebs.

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Re: Carb Problems

Post  Hew on Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:12 pm

Bump, Thanks for the kind offer.
I have a couple of jets on order and will see how things go with that.
What effect does the float height have on the fueling.If I change it to reduce the amount of fuel in the bowl how will that effect the bike running Question
Just read on a UK forum of a Pig going on fire after backfiring through the air box. Shocked It will be fuel and kill switch off for me as I clear it out in future.
Had a go on a CRF when I was out riding this weekend. What a difference when ridden back to back, shame they are so brittle naughty

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