problems starting 2002 brp

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problems starting 2002 brp

Post  robthebob on Sun Apr 17, 2011 5:55 pm

Now then.

I'm having problems starting my brp. I've read all about the techniques and I've tried them myself but they don't seem to work. I had this problem when I got the bike and so far I have:

Cleaned the carb + jets. Running: 175 main; 68s; B53E needle, clip on 3rd position.

valves have been checked and now sounds like a sewing machine.

new plug too.

The only time I've had it started are with choke on full. If I let it run for a while with choke on it dies.

Still, my problem is starting it -I've spent a good couple of hours trying to start it and had it running 4 times...

When I get a good powerful kick the lights are flaring up as if they are on then as I reach the end of the kick they die.

What the hell could the problem be? Help me trouble shoot this as the brp should fire up after 3 kicks!

Help me!

Rob
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Re: problems starting 2002 brp

Post  BuRP on Sun Apr 17, 2011 8:49 pm

Rob,

it should run 1rst or 2nd kick if the procedure - you say is correct - is right.
Adjust your sparkplug to half the gap i.e it'll need less HT to start.
Better?
Then look for an electrical problem.
If not better then re-check your carb, something's amiss. Filter clogged? Flush tank? Mesh-filter of tap clogged?
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Re: problems starting 2002 brp

Post  robthebob on Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:16 pm

Cheers burp.

Right. Couldn't start it again. Noticed with tank off and fuel tap turned on it is just a slow drip. Not like the flow you get with the reserve. Anyway. Put it on reserve, kicked it over, started after 3. Could even get it going when it was hot.

Problem now is if I blip the throttle it dies on me. Put it into gear and go for smooth start it dies. This is with fuel tap on reserve or turned 'on'.

Troubleshoot this?

I'm chuffed that I can start it though.
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Re: problems starting 2002 brp

Post  AURORA on Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:02 am

The screen on your petcock assembly might have deteriorated and collapsed thus reducing the flow of fuel to the carb.
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Re: problems starting 2002 brp

Post  robthebob on Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:56 pm

checked over petcock today seems okay.

Bike was being a pain in the arse again...

Thought I would test new sparkplug with .5mm gap like I did with old one (which started fine) but does not want to fire up. Swapped back to old plug and idle was going up and down then conking out. Plug was black so running rick at the pilot? Carb boots are seated fine and no leaks. Got me thinking vacuum tube was crushed? Or something was crushed as idle was up and down then just conking out. Noticed the air screw is knackered, so ordered a new one; which arrives on Thursday along with a new clutch cable. Weird cos I set the idle yesterday.

Can't believe what a tempremental pig this bike is... At least I understand why it is called a BRP! Obviously overlooking something. Going to take carb apart again and give everything a going over...again!

Thought I would go for a blast on my 200exc and went to put in new air filter...they've sent me the wrong filter. shit luck!
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Re: problems starting 2002 brp

Post  BuRP on Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:33 pm

Rob,

I hunch - pls hear me out - that your bike has been standing for a long - read: loooooooooong - time?
If so the petrol goes off, grows bacteria in it and goes gungy. You said you cleaned the carb - but I bet you did not use compressed air to blow-out all - read: aaaaaaalllllll - the fine bores, holes, crevices and why.
You should do same with the petrol cock, and blow both ways if possible (hey, well meant, don't get any funny ideas now please Wink ).
This would make sure, really sure, that no rubbish remains. Reassemble using light oil, also on the various jets, screws etc, and I bet your problems are over.
Oh, 1 thing: if you've got the petcock off plug the hole with a cork, put some handfulls of clean sand (got a parrot?) in it, add some petrol, and shake it until you're dizzy. Empty, rinse a few times until clean and your bike's set for hassle-free starting, running and and.... because the problems you experience are hardly typical for a Pig.

If I'm wrong in the assumption that your bike has been standing for some time - then the above in any case is a good way of doing things.


As a PS: whilst you've got the carb off/open again, remove & chuck away the small springloaded choke-valve? You don't need it and you most certainly don't want it (if it comes loose - and they do! - then your engine will 'eat' it). Also plug the tiny bore/hole (with a drop of epoxyglue or RTV) in the cover of the membrane on the LHS of the carb. This will cause your bike not to lean-off during deceleration, and also it will decelerate a bit stronger/better, the engine-braking goes up a bit.
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Re: problems starting 2002 brp

Post  AURORA on Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:02 pm

AURORA wrote:The screen on your petcock assembly might have deteriorated and collapsed thus reducing the flow of fuel to the carb.

I meant the screen/filter of the petcock.

2nd, are you running the unrestricted intake?
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Re: problems starting 2002 brp

Post  robthebob on Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:30 pm

Aurora - it is an UK model so no restrictions.

Burp - It might have been standing for some time, not sure. It has not been looked after I'll tell you that!

'tiny bore hole' is that the Air Jet Cut Off Valve? I've ordered some petrol proof sealant to squash that problem.

I did clean the carb with compressed air, but I'm going to do it again when I get the new air screw.

Changing the gap - will that affect the running of it?

Why does my brp die when I give it the throttle?
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Re: problems starting 2002 brp

Post  AURORA on Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:13 am

Maybe the coil.


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Re: problems starting 2002 brp

Post  BuRP on Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:44 pm

Rob,

"Changing the gap - will that affect the running of it?"
Yes it will. Correction, not will but may!
You need a certain HT-voltage (say 15KV) to jump 1mm under the pressure the engine is compressing to.
During idling the filling-efficiency (dunno the correct word/term: filling-degree, the amount of gas induced compared to the amount of gas that could be in there) is lowest, with as a direct result that the pressure is lowest too.
A weak spark (low KV) may just jump and therefore ignite the mix, but when the throttle opens - increasing the filling-efficiency hence the pressure - it may stop jumping, consequently killing the engine.
That's why I suggested - as a test only mind! - to 'half' the gap, as this would have a comparable effect of "increasing" the HT generated. In reality of course you need less KV to ignite a mix when a shorter gap needs to be jumped, and if you've got a weak ignition-system (which still works sortof) then one can 'find' this this way.
IF this is the case you'll only know that you've got an ignition problem of course, but at least that's something.

You did take out the needle-jet (not the jet-needle!!!!) too & cleaned it? Your so-called 'takeover-system' seems to be not working properly, and this part (plus all its bores/capillaries + main jet etc) normally is to blame then. This part (I think, not sure though) is also the emulsion-tube, it has lotsa small holes in, and these - duh! - must be fully open.

Both epoxy-glue and RTV are petrol-resistant, even gasket-maker is, and all these are well suited to plug the tiny hole in what you call the 'Air Jet Cut Off Valve'. That's a bit of a misnomer as this circuit has zero to do with the airjet, as it simply allows copious amounts of air into the engine (thus completely bypassing the pilot-airjet!!) when overrunning the engine.

There is another possible cause for your symptoms, however remote though I'll admit. You - of course - have removed the smog-rubbish, and plugged the vacuum-nipple on the intake manifold (on top).
If this has a small leak though, just small enough to "correct" by adjusting the pilot-screw, then it just may idle.... but it will be very reluctant to start getting fuel-delivery from the 'overtake' system, your needle jet (with jet-needle in it of course, but the needle is parallel here at this low opening).
Oh, 1 important thing - you say it dies, but this is - I assume? - when you open the throttle slowly????
Keep in mind that this carb does not have an acceleration-pump, hence 'whacking open' won't work.


Last edited by BuRP on Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:49 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)
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Re: problems starting 2002 brp

Post  BuRP on Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:58 pm

Float-level - set to correct value???????
If it is a lot more (lower fuel-level) then things won't work in the way you describe.
Scrutinize your Service Manual for the correct value (& how to measure it) - and if you don't have it download it, you must have this thing.
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Re: problems starting 2002 brp

Post  robthebob on Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:55 pm

Aye, I set float to correct value.

No, I wasn't hammering it like a pumper! Sometimes when I did it slowly I got to WOT when it was warm. Yesterday thought it would just conk out on me.

The bike had a 65s needle jet in, but, I put in a brand spanker 68s; so it was clean. But when I get my carb back I will go over everything again.

I noticed my jet needle was slightly worn where the needle 'collar' has been catching it. It isn't too bad, not enough to fork out for a new one for £30! This collar only sits one way on the needle jet? Maybe this could be the cause? I was pragmatic as it seems to fit snug in the recess of the needle jet. maybe I'm wrong? Excuse my ignorance but I thought the jet needle just sits in there. It was moving with the throttle action anyway.

have you got a pic of the vacuum-nipple on the intake manifold (on top). so I can double check.

I can't do anything till I get my carb back.

Thanks for your help guys.

Rob
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Re: problems starting 2002 brp

Post  Mauser on Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:27 pm

Shame your so far away Rob,
Could have popped over and helped you out Sad, does sound like a fuel issue to me. When she conks out is the plug wet or dry ?, dry wouldindicate fuel starvation...wet would indicate an electrical issue.

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Re: problems starting 2002 brp

Post  BuRP on Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:36 pm

Aye Rob, cana see yer a Scottie Very Happy
Luvverly accent, the girls here will go crazy once you get down here.

If the needle-jet (to be overly clear: the big round hole in which the (jet-)needle slides) has visible wear-marks then rest assured that the (jet-)needle also has them - it takes two to tango eh? Check the bore in the slide in which the needle sits - any play?
Inspect these - literally with a magnifying glass - and decide if you want to fork some dough for new stuff, the jet&needle most important here. If there's fine abrasive ridges on the needle then it will 'lift' fuel out/up when giving throttle, and this will mean a too-rich mixture. I doubt though if this is the problem, but any wear means a bigger surface & gap hence a richer mixture.
Mind though, wear there means it has run quite a bit, this wear comes with age/use, so better check all-round.

Mauser's advice is good in general but not here, sorry Pal. A simple throttle-lift which kills the engine will not cause a wet plug, I even doubt if it'll be discoloured. Besides, an idling engine's plug may not be "read" at all, unless you really want to try to determine the idling mixture - and then you'd need to run/idle it for hours on end.

You've got carb>rubber manifold>head. On the head, on the top, very close to the manifold you will find either a screwed-in nipple (the vacuum thingie) or something else screwed-in to block it off.
This vacuum-thing is/was used for the anti-smog rubbish Honda put on Cal-spec bikes - yours had it? If so it should be easy to find, no idea if other-spec bikes had something like this. In any case, this vacuum-thing may not leak.
Fwiw, I use this nipple to drive a vacuum-driven petrol-pump on a big tank (to 'lift' fuel out of the low tank-wings to the carb), so it may come in handy for you.

Mind, blocking this vacuum-nipple goes hand-in-hand with blocking a hole/nipple (a lot larger one) on the airbox's top. The smog-thing sucks air from here, and once gone this hole must be blocked off - check?
And no, this will/cannot be your problem however must be fixed if open.
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Re: problems starting 2002 brp

Post  robthebob on Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:17 pm

I've had to have my fuel screw drilled out. I've got a replacement, but what order does the fuel screw go in?

Also, when looking at this: http://www.allthingsmoto.com/forums/f-15/how-set-your-motorcycle-carburetor-float-level-more-commentary-13608/ on how to set the float level.

When I invert the carb, as per guide, to measure the float level, mine is only at around 13mm. My float level drops due to the weight of it(no pun intended) and doesn't appear as level as the one in the guide.


expletive brp!

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Re: problems starting 2002 brp

Post  robthebob on Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:39 pm

double post ignore this one.


Last edited by robthebob on Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:40 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : n/a)
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Re: problems starting 2002 brp

Post  robthebob on Mon May 02, 2011 6:51 pm

Anyone?
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Re: problems starting 2002 brp

Post  AURORA on Tue May 03, 2011 3:24 am

Float level 16 mm I believe is what the manual states. At 13 mm there would be excessive fuel in the bowl.

What screw are you talking about. The idle mixture screw?
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Re: problems starting 2002 brp

Post  BuRP on Tue May 03, 2011 11:41 am

Rob,

set the floatlevel to 17 (or 18 mm max) - yes, more, so that means a lower fuel-level! This prevent flooding, a tendency the Keihin has on this bike.
Also, you should NOT invert the carb a full 180 degrees, but instead turn/tilt until the float-tab pushes on the needle withOUT compressing the pin (which is springloaded) - and then measure (without gasket).
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Re: problems starting 2002 brp

Post  robthebob on Tue May 03, 2011 5:23 pm

idle mixture screw i think. It's brass and looks like http://www.randakks.com/GL1100%20Idle%20Mixture%20Screw%201.jpg

I've ordered a vernier to sort out the float.

Thanks for your help lads

bloody xr!
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Re: problems starting 2002 brp

Post  robthebob on Tue May 03, 2011 5:24 pm

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Re: problems starting 2002 brp

Post  AURORA on Tue May 03, 2011 7:54 pm

robthebob wrote:lol and i bet it is this order:

http://www.randakks.com/GL1100%20Idle%20Mixture%20Screw%202.jpg

Yes
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Re: problems starting 2002 brp

Post  BuRP on Tue May 03, 2011 8:52 pm

Izza notta 'bloody xr' Rob, we'll hear your tune changing once it going well Wink
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Re: problems starting 2002 brp

Post  robthebob on Sun May 08, 2011 8:00 pm

right I've put in a new idle mixture screw, blocked the air jet cut off thingymabob, and set the float (I think!). Gonna wait for the sealant to dry and will try it out on the morrow.

Fingers crossed it all goes well... then I can sort out the cosmetics!
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Re: problems starting 2002 brp

Post  BuRP on Mon May 09, 2011 9:16 am

On the morrow is fine Rob, just don't make it on the marrow, I'd hate to see posts posted from the intensive care ward razz If it'll go like it should do then you're gonna rave here, especially so when you can find an open piece for opening it up. Mind the stone walls eh, if you're used to supers then the standard brakes will take a bit of "getting used to" Wink
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